Where is super 8 headed?

[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogstarman:
Anyway, my point was: the local shop that actually could and would stock K-40 for customers who wanted to buy it can't, because Kodak won't sell to them. And the big companies that Kodak DOES sell to WON'T stock it, because they can't sell 30 million dollars worth in a fiscal quarter, so that means "Nobody wants it..."
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This is so very true. A friend of mine owns a small photolab down here and has boycotted selling Kodak products for the simple reason that Kodak cuts the throats of independent shop owners by making them buy supplies at a higher price than you or I can buy them over the counter at wholesale clubs like Sam's, here in Houston. The bottom line is that, if you are a big company like Sam's, you can get a super-duper deal on product for re-sale. If you're a smaller shop, then you have to pay retail, just like everyone else, because you don't order enough. True, my friend could go to Sam's to buy his supplies, but who's going to buy film from his shop at a marked up price when they can go to Sam's and get it cheaper than he can buy it directly from Kodak as a merchant?

And you are also right about stores not stocking things that people obviously want. I went into several drug stores looking for miniDV tape and none was to be found. However, they had TONS of VHS-C tapes that had collected dust over the last year. When I told the manager that VHS-C was pretty much dead in the water compared to the surging popularity of mini-DV, he said,"Yeah, I know. Those VHS-C tapes are ancient. But I'm not authorized to order anything different."

It reminds me of everytime I go to buy some damned shoes. I wear size 10 1/2, THE most common shoe size for men on the face of the earth. EVERY time I find some shoes I like, the shoe dweeb says,"Sorry, we're out of that size." When I ask why, the answer is always the same:"Well, it's a very common size, so we sell out of it faster." And then I ask the same question I always ask,"Well, knowing that, certainly you must order more of that size than the others, right?"

"No. That would be a special order. We just order the same amount of everything."

That's why we have VHS-C and size 8 1/2 men's shoes turning up in the bargin bin all the time! If only I was 5 foot two and had an afinity for small, twenty minute analog tapes, life would be fair.

Roger

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Roger Evans
MovieStuff
http://www.afterimagephoto.tv/moviestuff.html

[mattias]

> But corporations don't care about relative earnings; they care about the bottom line and what kind of overhead and liability there is for a given product.

usually, and certainly in kodak's case, that's a severe case of false economy. they need to supply a broad range of film products to back up their brand indetity and keep the customers. the important thing from this point of view isn't what people buy, but what people expect to have available. it's like a gorcery store not selling milk (or whatever the "base" food is in your country). they don't make much money at all selling milk, but they need to supply it or nobody would come.

and how many super-8 users eventually move up to using 16 and 35 mm as well, compared to mini dv users? these things are only important to a certain point of course, and super-8 might be too much of a niche product pretty soon, but i'm sure they are considering it.

/matt

[#Pedro]

Roger,
for what concrete reasons or informations do you post, that Kodak could switch to polyester base? All we know about the problems of pic stableness in Kodak carts, I think it would be a big risc for Kodak simply switch to polyester.
Polyester would make striping very complicated, so I doubt very much, that there would be a possiblity to get sound striped prints out of ECO.

And: Kodachrome and K40 (or K64 and K200) is not only S8, it?s the base of a product line called Kodachrome, used in still photografy as well as in 16 mm. It would be discontinuing all of it.

I think the most critical reason for discontinuing K40 is when Kodak cannot fix his cart-problems without any further costs. Environment never had been stronger than $$$, and developing is in Europe, where the enviromental concern is pretty stronger than in the USA.

I think threads like that very interesting, but I would like to see the SOURCES for the commets.

Pedro

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[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by #Pedro:
Roger,
for what concrete reasons or informations do you post, that Kodak could switch to polyester base?
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Well, it's been a while, but I read two different articles regarding the switch within the last year. Sorry, I don't remember the periodicals, but they were reputable. Also, I had a talk with someone at Kodak right after I read the articles and they mentioned, without me bringing it up, that Kodak was trying to figure out how to make Kodachrome work with polyester based stocks. So, can I back up my claim with documentation that you can check out? No, but you are more than welcome to call Kodak and they'll tell you everything you need to know. I would love to be proved wrong on this, but I have heard the same information from two many reliable sources.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by #Pedro:

All we know about the problems of pic stableness in Kodak carts, I think it would be a big risc for Kodak simply switch to polyester.
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That only matters if Kodak cares about keeping super 8 alive. If they don't care, then the risk means nothing.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by #Pedro:

And: Kodachrome and K40 (or K64 and K200) is not only S8, it?s the base of a product line called Kodachrome, used in still photografy as well as in 16 mm. It would be discontinuing all of it.
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Exactly! Something that Kodak has been dealing with for years. In the past Kodak was the king of the hill, but digital imaging is coming in and chewing up the competition. I know so many photographers that have switched over to digital for all their previous 35mm work. Now they only use film for medium and large format imaging, in which case the loss of Kodachrome means nothing.

Roger

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Roger Evans
MovieStuff
http://www.afterimagephoto.tv/moviestuff.html

[StopMoWorks]

A possible scenario?: I think the EPA stuff is maybe a pretext to give Kodak an "out" and they can claim that their hand was forced by the bureaucrats to stop producing Super 8....giving Kodak a perception of innocence...they 'really' wanted to continue making Super 8.....yeah, right. In the big gestalt picture.....Super 8 possibly contributes only a 'gnat's ass' worth of so-called pollution, compared to the much more volumnous chemicals used by the photographic still/print market. If this supposed EPA stuff or edict will be that severe, I would guess that the entire still/print market would also be going down to rapid extinction?

I really like the ECO Super 8 stock idea. I was going to suggest that Roger contact Kodak (he has) or maybe follow-up about this. ECO would kind of be the niche-filler for maybe the NEW, Film-transferred-to-DV market. A flat looking ECO stock maybe does not have the pizaz/wow-ness of K40, but it would definitely be superior for transferring purposes. Seems like Kodak could be lobbied about this to tap this new market (albiet still small)????

That sucks about how Kodak has their weird sales procedures that works against the small retailer. This could be just the general protocol of big business....they prefer to deal in volume. It would be nice if Kodak was altruistic in continuing Super 8 "just" for the small niche market....but....I don't know. I would like to think similar to Matt Pacini's theory, that Super 8 will continue on for years, however, as I get older, I sense in today's climate, that everything is in hyperspeed acceleration, and changes happening faster than 20, 10 or even 5 years ago. Today....volatile economic fluctuations, sudden brutal layoffs by corporations, and they do not seem to have a guilty conscious about that. Like Roger says.....it's about the bottom line. Imagine a new appointed CEO taking over Kodak and totally restructuring their operation in the so-called interest of become leaner & meaner. This happens all the time now.

We are all just hoping that Kodak has a compassionate heart & soul and will continue with Super 8 and maybe, Kodak's many other divisions can hopefully absorb this very small $loss$ ??? (from Super8 sales). Kodak's web site & their various statements in the past imply that they are committed to Super8. I do want Super 8 to continue.....but I just cannot see the future....to me, it's all a grey fog....hard to guess what can happen.
Lionel

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[This message has been edited by StopMoWorks (edited December 05, 2001).]

[MikeBrantley]

Ah.... I get it now. Sorry for being confused...


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--Mike Brantley

[Nigel]

I guess we will just have to wait and see. I do think that Kodak will stop making S8 if they just don't see the means to an end. However, to say that will kill S8 it is hard to say. Time will tell but I do agree with much of what Matt said and what Moviestuff said as well. Good Luck

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[StopMoWorks]

What I would hate to see is..... if at some time in the future, Kodak pulled out of the Super 8 market (I really hope that does not happen)and then somehow that $overpriced$ Pro8mm company acquires license, rights, or whatever to "carry on" the Super 8 cartridge/film market in the USA, then, we would really be stuck with absolutely no other "cost effective" options....one of the great benefits of Super 8 format. Since we are a captive market, Pro8mm would have us by our "cojones"!

Hey....lets try to lobby some Russian or other europeon company, so that we can have an alternative to Pro8mm (if that scenario ever happened). Somebody in Russia is already making those reloadable cartridges....maybe they can cut Super8 ECO stock for us! Of course, we have to figure out how to deal with the processsing. Just rambling and speculating here.
Lionel

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[Mr Blackstock]

when all is said and done, i beleive the future of super8 and many other "small" interest groups relies on the combined voice of people in those interest groups.

How is kodak to know of it's products support base other than through what stock is purchased in bulk by stores?

How many people around the world use super/standard8? Is there an organisation that represents the interests of this group?

All this may be overly dramatic of me, i think 8mm is cut from 30mm stock which has a long life ahead of it(i think) But, the question remains, does kodak know of it's support and is the 8mm enthusiast group cohesive beyond the ether world of the internet?

REVOLUTION IS A COMIN'!

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[#Pedro]

Kodak USA is producing the Kodachrome material of all available speeds, shipping it to France where it is sliced to the several gauges. One of them, the K40, is put into that carts there as a Super8 gauge, put to daylight rolls 8mm/200ft and as a 16mm gauge put to daylight rolls 16mm/100ft. If there is any Double8 or Super Double 8 left, I don?t know. Fact is, that only the S8 carts are very sensitve concerning the base and lubrification of the stock. The rest has sprocket drives and is not.
Pedro

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